Curse

ubermancer · Aug 05, 2006, 03:26 AM // 03:26

Do ele's suck at dealing damage?

Have some imagination, they are only poor because the inventive builds for other classes are well known.

LoyalSoldier · Aug 06, 2006, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubermancer

Do ele's suck at dealing damage?

Have some imagination, they are only poor because the inventive builds for other classes are well known.

You know didn't the thought occur that if there was some creative builds the uber build masters would have found it?

Elementalist damage really does stink. 100 damage every 2-3 seconds that may not do the full 100 is nothing compared to other classes. When it says on a necro that it will do 100 damage it does 100 damage. An assassin uses Twisted Fangs once and does a better job at killing. A monk only needs protective spirit and the ele is worthless.

Need I go on?

byteme! · Aug 06, 2006, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubermancer

Do ele's suck at dealing damage?

Have some imagination, they are only poor because the inventive builds for other classes are well known.

Elementalist has been around since the beginning. Eventhough we got some new skills with Factions if there was some uber builds out there they would've been found by now. As far as I am concerned, unless you're including your secondary skills ele's simply don't have enough "effective" offensive skills therefore limiting my "imagination".

LightningHell · Aug 07, 2006, 06:29 AM // 06:29

Elly damage has been proven to be bad...

Alleji · Aug 07, 2006, 06:44 AM // 06:44

An ele was my first character.

PvE:
Spiteful Spirit, gg.

Unfortunately most people in PvE don't realize that an ele is outclassed in the only thing they're "good" at and keep playing them. (Not only by necros. A smiting monk would do more aoe damage as well. And soon, dervish.)

PvP:
Elementalists are not the damage-dealers here. They are warders, flag runners, e-prod HP/blind spammers and recently, PD "mesmers" because of high energy capacity. EQ/AS builds and fire nukers are still somewhat viable in tombs because on half the maps everyone is clustered like no tomorrow and SS necros don't own everything left and right, like they do in PvE. Although a fire nuker is outclassed by a smiter, unless you're running NR/tranq.

As for ele spike:
Shelter, gg.

arra sails · Aug 08, 2006, 10:16 PM // 22:16

since every1 here has been slagging off fire eles, I'm gonna say something good about them, I'm a fire ele and everyone has been saying they hardly do any damage and that air, earth, water r much better (i've not tried them so i can't comment) I know fire elementalists are probably the weakest and easily killed around but they can deal a great amount of damage, in the ring of fire it gets hard but as long as you have winter it can be ok, someone said fireball takes off 30, I've taken off over 500 on something before (i forget what it was) with fireball, instead of slagging off fire eles why dont you try and find some positives about them?

LouAl · Aug 08, 2006, 10:57 PM // 22:57

I played my E/R through the storyline of Proph. I really hated MS because half the time mobs are dead when it hits. I switched to using air/water/earth and had some good fun, but I still didn't like him. He got re-rolled to a Ranger.

One thing that makes Elementalist less effective, in PvP, is the fact that there are big animations for everything that happens. It is VERY easy to see and avoid all the really big and damaging ele spells like Meteor Shower, Fire Storm, Lava Font, etc. It is also easy to see if someone is using Air Magic simply by looking at what animations are happening to your teammates. On the other hand, it is not easy to see who has the SS on them and is damaging you (unless they call it, but we all forget to call/don't notice sometimes). Warriors are also easy to see what they are doing, but since their damage output is higher and they are harder to kill this is *less* of an issue.

Xpl0iter · Aug 14, 2006, 07:17 AM // 07:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by arra sails

since every1 here has been slagging off fire eles, I'm gonna say something good about them, I'm a fire ele and everyone has been saying they hardly do any damage and that air, earth, water r much better (i've not tried them so i can't comment) I know fire elementalists are probably the weakest and easily killed around but they can deal a great amount of damage, in the ring of fire it gets hard but as long as you have winter it can be ok, someone said fireball takes off 30, I've taken off over 500 on something before (i forget what it was) with fireball, instead of slagging off fire eles why dont you try and find some positives about them?

cause there is not much positive stuff about them.. even their primary attribute is gimped.

torquemada · Aug 14, 2006, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Fire does suck, it's true, moreso in some areas. Fighting Jade Brotherhood makes me sweat a lot as a fire ele, because they tend to run "balanced"

- 2xW,1-2xMe, 2xEle, Healer/Rit. Moreso their Warrs tend to do pressure, while Mesmers interrupt - and using long cast fire line it's, simply put, death. It's still dumb AI, yet it performs much better than other's I've seen.

In other areas frying them with AoE is not a problem, really, it's as easy as it gets.

Air ele in PvE is not much of an asset, I'm afraid. Adding to the fact that pace of the game is much more leisure, spamming Ether Prodigy and flashbotting opponents seems indeed wasted on huge mobs that are going to get owned with mass KD anyway. For PvP, it rocks, but I'd daresay, even when I play Air Ele (pvp-wise) I feel more of a support than main DPS class. Primary role - blinding (and there are other things, like wards and snares). As for damage, you can assist decently in the meantime.

As for warding, it is indeed very useful. I never separate from at least vs.Melee ward, oftentimes others as well. Depends on situation. In endgame, you do get to shift your focus from damage to utility, but that does not get me upset, really.

Amy Awien · Aug 14, 2006, 09:17 AM // 09:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Elly damage has been proven to be bad...

Just curious, how and where?

Ozric · Aug 14, 2006, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Just curious, how and where?

While the thread has already been referred to in this very thread, here it is again.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...y+Nuking+Sucks

Amy Awien · Aug 14, 2006, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Sorry, yes I've seen it but it's title put me off - and indeed, the title is a good predictor of the contents. The DPS calculations the article works from is based on 100% frenzy, which is probably not very realistic.

Concerning damage threats, the existence of AoE spells seems to have some effect on positioning ...

*lemming* · Aug 14, 2006, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Sorry, yes I've seen it but it's title put me off - and indeed, the title is a good predictor of the contents. The DPS calculations the article works from is based on 100% frenzy, which is probably not very realistic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Axe: 35.55 damage per hit, 26.66 damage per second, 1600 damage per minute; 40 damage per second
2400 damage per minute while under Frenzy

What did you say about calculations when frenzied?

Mysterial · Aug 14, 2006, 08:28 PM // 20:28

You actually quoted that wrong; 1600 damage per minute is 26.66 DPS and goes with the part before your emphasis.

However...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Sorry, yes I've seen it but it's title put me off - and indeed, the title is a good predictor of the contents. The DPS calculations the article works from is based on 100% frenzy, which is probably not very realistic.

Let's not forget that 40 DPS under 100% Frenzy is *before* attack skills. I'll ignore that fact if you ignore the fact that you can't Frenzy 100% of the time. So let's just say that "good" DPS is 40. How many Elementalist builds do you know of that can sustain even that? Now consider that Elementalists need to use most if not all of their skill bar to get that and have only 60 armor (generally), while the Warrior has 80+ armor and free slots to take Healing Signet, etc. Can you get your Elementalist to have enough extra damage/disruption to make up for that?

Amy Awien · Aug 14, 2006, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Frenzy seems a bit risky to have on 100% of the time, take double damage ...

Sustainable damage is nice to get an impression, but by itself it's not at all there is to it. A good part of the time you'll not be attacking or casting spells, and that shifts the "balance" from sustained dps to spike-dps.

Raw damage alone isn't the only thing about the game, if doing damage was the only possibility in this game all fights would be over real quick. Elementalists have brilliant defense skills, Ward against Melee for instance, essentially halves that high warrior dps.

Phades · Aug 15, 2006, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Frenzy seems a bit risky to have on 100% of the time, take double damage ...

Sustainable damage is nice to get an impression, but by itself it's not at all there is to it. A good part of the time you'll not be attacking or casting spells, and that shifts the "balance" from sustained dps to spike-dps.

The problem that you are having is that you are attempting to argue for elementalists chain casting versus warrior normal attacks. First off, it just cant be done like warrior auto attack can be. Secondly, even in the event that the "pressure" situation can not be maintained, warriors still spike better than elementalists and more often if you figure in the same uptimes and downtimes.

The problem lies in trying to balance what the equivilant a "attack" skill does in spell form to how everything stacks together with a basic attack and having the bulk of the damage come in AL ignoring damage. Its not like fireball adds 119 damage on top of wand damage, on top of conjure damage, on top of armor penetration, in addition to being easily sustainable and near instantaneous in application.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Raw damage alone isn't the only thing about the game, if doing damage was the only possibility in this game all fights would be over real quick. Elementalists have brilliant defense skills, Ward against Melee for instance, essentially halves that high warrior dps.

Arguing that elementalists have utility spells in a thread that is poking holes in the common misconception that elementalists are good damage dealers doesnt make sense. I do not believe that anyone ever stated that elementalist utility skills had no use.

For the sake of argument, lets say that blinding flash gained a damage element equivilant to envenerating charge. People would still bring the skill for the utility of applying blind at range with a low cast time/recharge, not because it also happeded to do some damage as well. This is the same as all of the water line skills that are brought into builds.

If elementalists are to be damage dealers, their entire skill lines would have to be altered to reflect the efficiency, synergy, and speed that the dervish was durring the pvp event. Short of that, it would be either meaningless or a unwanted and unneeded buff to mesmer primary elementalist skill users.

Amy Awien · Aug 15, 2006, 06:25 AM // 06:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

The problem that you are having is ...

I don't have a problem here.

dgb · Aug 15, 2006, 06:55 AM // 06:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

I don't have a problem here.

Well you're struggling to understand the numbers that this game has.

In short, a warrior with no skills on its bar comes very close or outright beats an elementalist with a full bar dedicated to damage. Start to include warrior attack skills into the equation and it's no contest.

This is why nuking sucks. If you want proof, go grab five eles and some monks and try to level a relatively high end area. Now go and grab four warriors (who have a clue, something that can't allways be guaranteed in PVE), an orders necro and the same set of monks and level the same area. The warriors will get it done a long time before your eles do.

Sure there are some areas which have specific counters to warriors, such as the Tomb of Primeval Kings. But what do you see there? Instead of elementalists being the kings for DPS it's the rangers on top. So for PvE we have warriors and rangers sitting about elementalists. Necromancers would be there as well, and a good illusion mesmer should be able to beat them without too much trouble either. So your elementalist is sitting about fifth in the pecking order for outright damage. Sure you can kill stuff with it, that's not at argument. Is it the most efficient way? Definately not.

Why_Me · Aug 15, 2006, 04:33 PM // 16:33

I'm an earth ele BTW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

I thought Eles were supposed to be main damage dealers, but seriously, so far my *mesmer* easily outdamages my fire ele, and there's just no comparing to my warrior or my ranger!

In PvE, yes. Your warrior, ranger, or mesmer far outdamages the ele in PvP though. However, I don't believe that a mesmer, warrior, or ranger (with the exception of barrage possibly) could come even close to outdamaging a fire ele in PvE. Just because a jade brotherhood knight was just killed with your l337 and uber axe mastery doesnt mean that you dealed more damage then an ele, whos target is still at 50% hit points. If you look at the targets around the ele's target, they will be at the same hit points, unlike your eviscerate+executioners strike victim, who's adjacent foes will be at full. Sure, the ele might run out of energy (highly doubt it, considering if he's nuking he has an energy elite), but he didn't need to wait 20 seconds to run next to the target and wait for his adrenaline to charge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

(from why nuking sucks) It's nigh impossible to calculate how much damage you can deal with AoE because it's entirely dependant upon how many people you can get into the AoE. The big issue here is the energy. A fire elementalist can easily consume 10+ pips of energy regeneration every minute. The upside is that they can realistically dish out enough damage to be worth that investment if they can get it. A character that kicks out 6 Fireballs, 3 Incendiary Bonds, and 3 Rodgort's Invocations in a minute, at a cost of 180 energy (9 pips), assuming he can get a second target on half of his Fireballs or Bonds and hits ~2.5 people with a Rodgorts, is dishing out 2845 damage, a perfectly acceptable number for a nuker. The problems, then, are being able to find enough targets fast enough to get good returns out of the AoE, and the ridiculous energy concerns of this character.

Since the energy isn't usually a problem in PvE, you're fine,and you can normally hit for more than the the stated number of targets there, dealing 3000+ damage per minute, perfectly acceptable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Zardeone

Warrior: zealous axe, cyclone axe and triple chop. If that doesn't do more aoe damage than MS then...
Necro: Spiteful spirit 37 or 41 damage every time your target attacks. It also does those same 37 or 41 damage to whatever is around it. Echo and spread around and you're looking at at least 80 damage per second.

Both are too conditional. The "hold item" aggro trick was nerfed after factions release, so I really doubt the enemy's AI would get them all attacking or be adjacent to the same target which has 20AL more than everyone else. The warrior would then need to manuever around to a decent sized closely clustered group, which could take a large amount of time with all the obstructions in battle. Since the ele is ranged, he could switch targets as much as he wants and be able to target anyone on the battlefield instantly and unleash some skills. SS is comparable to a nuker however. Under the right clustered conditions (2 man underworld, etc.) it is a much better AoE damage dealer. However it is too conditional for a random PvE mission. Your damage is stapled to that enemy, what happens if they move away from the center of the cluster. What happens if they are unable to use skills or attack? More importantly, what happens if they die? since it's a hex, your damage goes with them.

This is for PvE, in PvP, get a warrior or mesmer, your dual attunement fire nuking build is doing nothing.

Ensign · Aug 15, 2006, 08:03 PM // 20:03

PvE Warriors run Triple Chop and Cyclone Axe.

Meteor Shower and Incendiary Bonds are complete piles of crap in general PvE with good groups. You need to specifically find targets that no one is attacking for them to do anything at all. If you target a warrior's target, he will be dead in the five seconds it takes for IB to do anything, or the eight it takes for Met Shower. The only zone where those two skills have proven to be useful in my experience is the deep, where the warriors basically have to take anti-knockdown stuff and can't destroy things, and enemies are hearty enough for your skills to matter. Of course, the damage your skills do is pathetic for similar reasons.

I've put down fire in PvE since the only skill that's any good on my bar is Fireball - Rodgorts was ok but nothing too exciting. Sure there was a bit of fun with Lava Font AI abuse, but really now. Using air magic and replacing a monk on a team instead of a warrior has proven to be much more effective for general use.

Peace,
-CxE